Demon Bluff

Very fun rules, but the game seems fundamentally broken right now. I've lost multiple rounds because character hints were completely incorrect, and the character was neither corrupted nor drunk. Would absolutely play more if these issues were fixed.

I LOVE this game but I really don't get the baker at all. I think sometimes in rounds I'm lacking major information and it happens like wayyyy to often. Like many rounds of its a 1 in 9 chance, but maybe its just me being bad at the game. I just don't get the doppleganger and the baker much, like the baker says its meant to be someone else I have NO idea how to find out who she was before. If you guys have any tips for me that would also help.

I know how to clear the DREAMER and the JUDGE. if the dreamer says the WRETCH is a cabbage, the dreamer is good. if the judge says that the confessor is telling the truth, the judge is good.

This game is absolutely horrible.
The characters lie when they aren't evil.

the dreamer said the wretch is a cabbage? Is that normal?

Hey, is this a bug, or did I misunderstood something ?

The oracle said "#1 or #4 is a Poisoner" but there was no Poisoner in the possible cards for the round so I figured it was lyind and either Evil or Corrupted, but it was neither.

What happened ? 🤔

Yo,so I came with a character idea.its called the "dancer",a good villager role.her ability is to tell if any specific demon role is an odd or even number.ex:it's a deck of 8 cards,4 is a shaman, dancer says"shaman is an even number",so she's good.however,if she says "puppeteer is an even number"(puppeteer is 7 or not even in the deck) that means she's evil or corrupted

My endless streak, split between my login and unlogged-in cookies is now 100 villages in a row, so I am now comfortable having even more opinions.

More Bugs Observed

Oracle mode bug. The flip-order tracker should not reset after executing a character.

Text off screen.

Pooka Frequency Check? I like Pooka in my endless games, but I seem to get the true fluffiest evil 50% more than Baa. Goat guy seems under-represented.

Playstyles

All minion games. I don’t mind the demons, but it would be nice to regularly have all-minion games in hard mode to mix it up a little. The minions have a greater range of disguise and slightly more chaotic abilities on average so they are quite challenging.

Wording Fixes

Small fix to Medium. The medium should say “#3 is actually a doppelganger” instead of “#3 is a real doppelganger” to match the better phrasing of the drunk.

Evil Hover text. The Evil hover text has a few grammatical oddities. Maybe change it to “Character alignment. Eliminate all Evils to save the village. Evils Lie and Disguise, unless specific rules say otherwise.”
(Current text is “Character Alignment. Eliminate them. Most often Lie and Disguise. Eliminate all Evil to save the village.”) IMO, the plural noun “Evils” as a shorthand for “evil characters” is trivial to understand, used consistently in other parts of Demon Bluff, and fits the gamelike context.

Alchemist Activation. Alchemist’s card should mention that his ability triggers at the start of a match when he is still facedown after evils and outcasts have acted because he is a violation of the typical rule that most abilities trigger on flip.

Chancellor and Puppet. It would be helpful to note somewhere that Outcast and Evil numbers in the upper right Villager/Outcast/Minion/Demon tracker don’t reflect the totals in game because of these characters’ abilities.

Minor plurals. It’s the littlest of nitpicks, but 1 minion and 0 demons in the upper left tracker would be correct.

Outcast-related deck bloat

Hard games generally have one too many possible outcasts in the play deck. This makes Baa completely meaningless as a demon.

For instance, a 6 Villager, 1 Outcast, 2 Minions, 1 Demon game with Chancellor, Minion, and Pooka has 15 cards in the play deck (9 villagers (6 real + 3 potential disguises), 4 outcasts, 3 evils) for 10 cards on the field. The play deck should only have 3 outcasts to account for the one chancellor will add, and a possible outcast disguise.

In a 9 card game with Witch and Pooka and 2 outcasts, 4 outcasts show up in the play deck. In this type of game, I would expect play decks that alternately have 2 or 3 outcasts, varying the uncertainty.

Fixing the outcast deck bloat would make hard games marginally easier on average because of uncertainty reduction, but it benefits players who like more logical approaches as opposed to stab-and-find-outers (like me!). You could have a mix of both, too.

Baker. The baker is a benefit & drawback flawed character like an outcast, but they can’t be listed as one because their ability wouldn’t work. That said, internally, I really think the baker should be treated as an outcast for frequency purposes. Remove one outcast from the game if a baker is going to show up.

Even more characters that could be in the game

Gardener

(Villager, Good) (↶) Pick 1 character: Learn how many evils were still facedown after the selected card was first flipped over. [NO NIGHT REFRESH! BUT MAYBE NOCTURNAL REFRESH.] Hint: Oracle Mode numbers cards by the order they were originally flipped in.

Lazybones

(Outcast, Good) Disguises as a Villager or Outcast with an (↶) activating ability. Trying to use their ability reveals Lazybones’ true identity.

(↶) Select two/three cards from the pop-up deck of eligible roles. Lazybones randomly disguises as one of those characters and can use their ability. Hint: Truthful villagers always see Lazybones as Lazybones and an Outcast.

[The ability is Lazybones running off to the neighboring village to borrow someone else to do their job! And the eligible roles might be the villagers in the current deck, or cards that are less powerful. Lazybones keeps the yellow outcast card border when it borrows a new role as a reminder of what they are.]

[A card to throw off careful player calculus, but give them an opportunity to try to pick a custom villager in recompense.]

Nocturnal

(Outcast, Good†) Game Start: I disguise as a Good Villager currently in play. I am initially Good and Truthful.

If a Good character is Executed, I turn into a Lying Evil Demon that must be Executed! (Note: Evils who slay Goods do not turn Nocturnal.)

Hint: When Nocturnal turns Evil, cards with abilities that refresh during a Night Cycle instantly renew. Previous statements and actions Nocturnal made while Good are still seen as truths, but any new ones after a turn will be Lies.

“A sinister and restless bloodline, reawakened by innocent blood spilt.”

[A card to share the game with a drunk or doppelganger, best friend of the Chancellor. Might also need the ability to reactivate any one living card’s power if there are not enough night refresh roles on the board. I think disguising as a card not in play like a usual demon is a bit too tricky when there is corruption everywhere.]

Ghul

(??? Evil) If there are no dead characters, lose 1 health on every other card flip, starting with Flip 1. (e.g. 1,3,5,7,9)

[Not sure if this would be better or worse in play than the other one health lost per flip baddie with reduced penalty I suggested below. The goal is to encourage strategic flipping and early risk-taking. Should not show up with Lilis or any other health subtractors. (Although I think of Lilis as a slightly stronger Witch, like Pooka is a stronger Poisoner, and doesn’t need extra bleed damage because losing a good villager selectively is its own penalty.)]

If you execute a Drunk Disguised as a Knight, do you take 2 DMG 'coz it was a Drunk or 9 DMG 'coz the Knight was corrupted?

What does it mean that Baa adds a fake Outcast? How is fake Outcast any different from normal one, do his abilities work? Let's say fake Doppelganger.

you can't really see it that good anymore, but basically #3 said that #3 or #8 could be poisoner. And #7 said #3 is saying the truth, but they are both wrong? And not corrupted?

⚠ Warning: do not click on links in comments offering "latest version". It is a scam. Developers would not post links for new versions in comments.

On Ascension 15, and I’ve played about 180 rounds total, so I feel I can have opinions.

Overall

• Solid interface, sounds, and art on desktop. All the core game behaviors work well and are inviting.

• I would like more tutorialization. The new roles pour in too quickly in standard to get a handle on them. The way I would implement this is a tutorial mode from the main menu for each type of character with 3-5 rigged rounds that showcase behaviors and rules intersections. As new characters come into play, unlock more games for the same character.

• Tags could be improved. I used them heavily, but the options were insufficient. I would split the colored tags into labels that you can apply one each of Set 1 (Good, Evil, (Unknown)) and Set 2 (Truth, Lie, (Unknown)).

Bugs observed

• The web version sometimes fails to clear out some old cards, causing a double layered card effect with fake cards over the real ones. Touching oracle mode solves it.

• Postgame summary sometimes shows wrong draw order. While hovering gets you some info, it doesn’t show the identities of face down cards Lilis killed, which would be handy.

• Dead evils in Lilis rounds who disguised as renewable characters don’t have their abilities renew.

Characters I think work well:

• Bard - Not quite as useful as the scout, but feels balanced.

• Bishop - Potentially the strongest role in the game because they are useful when either lying or truthful. There’s always two good characters among their description. Sometimes a board is such that the strongest opening move is to kill the bishop to validate potential IDs, especially if there is a drunk in play. That doesn’t mean nerf because I need some strong roles that call out other characters specifically to balance some of the underwhelming ones.

• Confessor - Strong in a game with limited corruption, weaker in a game with corruption but useful for being a target of abilities. Overall well balanced.

• Druid - Useful for drunks and fake bombardiers, and can very reliably self-validate in most games if not useful.

• Empress - Potentially the second strongest role in the game because they are useful when either lying or truthful. Especially useful when lying in high evil number games. That doesn’t mean nerf because I need some strong roles that call out other characters specifically to balance some of the underwhelming ones.

• Enlightened - Well balanced, not a dominating role like empress, but often helps clinch.

• Fortune Teller - Deceptively simple in a good way. Using the fortune to simply self validate with known goods is often less valuable than trying to use it as a select-target gemcrafter, with one known good and one unknown that will break a conundrum in one kill. Very strong in Lilis rounds since the first Lilis kill is never(?) a wretch so you have a known good to play with.

• Gemcrafter - Basic ability, better when lying. Solid role.

• Hunter - Surprisingly strong.

• Judge - Basic ability with thoughtful use cases, simpler to use than fortune teller and combines well with it.

• Knight - A weaker card. The occasional free kill and ability to validate don’t make up for the low grade bombardier liability in a corruption round. I like it for the same reason as bombardier though - it feels like a gamble you have to work up to. Also looks like a Link to the Past Link.

• Knitter - Low key one of my favorite cards because of how effective it is in early game, in just about every type of game, lie or truth. It isn’t in your face powerful like empress or bishop, but clutches more frequently than I expect.

• Lover - a solid card, rarely feels useless, not OP.

• Medium - more powerful when lying and often clinches corruption games.

• Oracle - strong card, with the likes of Empress and Bishop

• Scout - love child of the knitter and hunter. Also surprisingly strong.

• Slayer - great for taking an early-game risk, balanced with the intrigue added when killing often doesn’t work. I would have never anticipated Grocery Store Brand Geralt would be balanced as well as he is.

• Wretch - Favorite outcast because it doesn’t time bog rounds with more “if X, then Y”.

• Doppelganger - A well balanced outcast that makes it harder to spot minions, but guarantees a truth teller in its pair.

• Drunk - Adds drama and intrigue, but too much intrigue if a drunk and plague doctor are in the same game with another corrupter.

• Lilis - The refresh ability mechanics need to be prominently introduced somewhere. Lilis rounds add lots of tension in a good way, especially when those refresh roles come up. I would do away with the -2 health every kill. It can raise the tension if there is a drunk in the same game, but it doesn’t add a lot.

• Poisoner, Pooka, Chancellor, Puppeteer, and Puppet - I REALLY like the evils that have location-based mechanics. They work well, especially with limited reveal games. Puppet’s strange honest mechanic works well because of this.

• Minion and Twin Minion - Simple, but a breath of fresh air in games where there are drunks and Plague Doctors.

• Shaman - cool ability, interesting in games with doppelganger.

Characters I have no particularly strong feelings about

• Architect - I prefer the relative direction characters over this global option role more. All the characters can often occasionally clinch the game, but I feel like the architect underperforms.

• Plague doctor - I have strong feelings, but they resolve to net neutral. Doc is useful and interesting, but playing a round with them takes longer. The corruption snipe across the board adds the most intrigue of any character in game, so I have to do a lot more work to hash out truth-lie combo possibilities. The most common role that makes me reset games because I don’t want to take that long. I had a streak of about 10 games in a row without the doc, corruption, not corruption, and frankly I didn’t miss him too much. I guess my net feelings are too much of him is annoying.

• Jester - Clunky. I finish a lot of rounds without tapping it.

• Poet - Seems like a card to rig rounds to have duplicate/not-in-play villagers. Fine by me, but I don’t like that I need to have all the mimicked-cards memorized because there is no place in game to reference rules for cards not in play. Otherwise a fine card.

• Witness - Rarely comes up so I haven’t developed an opinion. I wonder if the frequency is bugged. Maybe I am just unlucky.

• Bombardier - Occasionally results in “flip a coin not to die” logic forks which are sometimes avoidable by plotting ability use better. I like bombardier’s drama, but I can’t put it in “works well” because it can kill a round through no fault of the player. I screenshotted an example of this.

• Witch - Kind of boring. Witch’s can’t reveal last card should be changed to “Witch turns the last card flipped into animal. Kill the witch to change them back. (Animal cards don’t count as flipped for score purposes)” Looking at a facedown card is boring. It would be a lot more interesting to see a pig, or newt, or llama, or dog, or cat, or something.

• Baa - Adds uncertainty about drunk and doppelganger and disguise as outcast games. Does its job as intro demon.

Characters I like less because they tend to be obnoxious

• Alchemist - Often not useful, most useful when he does nothing. Ability is underwhelming. I often find myself in a conundrum with him where there a choice between assuming he acted, or him lying about it (Pooka has a wide sweep), and thus he’s not useful to early game logical eliminations until I kill someone, and by then other roles will have allowed be to make a better judgment call. It’s actually problematic that he shows up so often with the plague doctor because the plague doctor’s ability to snipe across the board makes him far more tenuous to trust vs maybe being adjacent to other liars. And him not doing anything about the drunk to add even more uncertainty is just a napalm skunk thrown on the dumpster fire.

• Baker - They feel like a gimmick. The behavior is really bizarre compared to previous characters so the baker is stressful in a “I don’t really know how this character’s ability works so I don’t know how to gain useful info from it” sense when they first start appearing. By the time I got used to them, I wound up hoping they lie because that’s more useful than the baker chaining to overwrite more useful character roles. I sometimes reset baker games that don’t have enough corruption causing sources.

• Dreamer - The least useful villager role, even in Lilis games with the night refresh. Can’t really validate anyone but themselves, and only after an evil kill or if wretch is in the game. This character needs a buff or to be done away with - the only role I have feelings this strong about. I’d rather Dreamer only show up in 3+ evil games and eliminate an evil possibility, e.g. “Can’t be Pooka”. (“Pick 2 characters: Learn which Evil role they aren’t. If Good picked, learn random info. Hints: If Lies: If Evil picked, learn correct info. “#1 couldn’t be: Puppet. #2 couldn’t be: Puppeteer”)

wait why does the minion give correct info here?

game makes certain interactions unclear, for example whether evil characters exclusively lie or not (apparently they can also tell the truth)

edit: and apparently the plague doctor is immune to corruption? or he just happened to roll a 1 in whatever where he told the truth on an accident. a game of this kind is just unplayable when it has such vague mechanics.

odd thing is, whenever i use the bishop on wretches (to tell if theyre lying) only the ones that arent evil or lying say there are no outcasts, is this a bug??

I wish this was for mobile

I find myself relying pretty heavily on the wiki for unspoken mechanics like demons can’t disguise as a villager in play but minions can, or outcasts can’t be corrupt (except the drunk), and judge sees the wretch as truthful (even though other characters see wretch as evil), and which roles renew abilities after night passes in Lilis rounds.

There’s an unacceptably large gap between the mechanics on the cards, and the mechanics as relevant that maybe a compendium within the game could address.

The ability to practice with a deckbuilding mode would be helpful or at least more casual.

I play on my school computer and it's fun! But I always wanted to play it on my phone then I play then it freezes at 90% idk why...